Below is the full transcript to the medium quality audio of a conversation between friends. Nax (right) is a thoughtful friend, talented comedian and musician, and all around lovely individual. This is one of a million deep rooted discussions we partake in that aligns with the theme of the Mixed Messages Series, and we decided to capture and share. Thank you for taking the time to engage with it and us as we dive into our truths. Be kind, this was my first attempt at doing a recording! *recommend using headphones*
Nax: Hello.
Alesia: Hi. Just for background… It's Sunday afternoon. We are at the Bosque with a lovely view of the river. I just wanted to be somewhere quaint, private, peaceful for this hang out. Thank you for coming!
Nax: Thank you for inviting me. I love this. This is my favorite little spot. We found this nook by the river. We’ve started 2025.
Alesia: Right! Warmest winter known to man.
Nax: It's still hot.
Alesia: Literally sweating right now.
Nax: Global warming’s not real
Alesia: Not at all! …I'm glad to have the opportunity to dive into this particular subject matter with you, one of my closest friends that I’ve made in Albuquerque. I'm so grateful for the safety and comfort of the space that you provide, that this friendship provides.
Nax: Yeah, same. I'm so grateful for you, and it's special that we both landed here at the same time.
Alesia: I do want to start with the background of your upbringing. What is the relationship that you had with Christianity that your family had with it? What were the different dynamics, pros? Cons? things you maybe already noticed even in your childhood, very young age. Sometimes we hold on to them and they come with us into adulthood…
Nax: We grew up in Las Cruces with parents that met through the church, the capital C church, which is referred to as “The Church”.
*cue geese flying overhead*
Hey kids! Hey y'all!
Alesia: Hi!
Nax: I was the youngest of two, and born and raised as a girl. Christianity was a center point for our family. My parents separately were raised religiously under Christianity And then had also played with, what religion meant to them. But then did find each other through… It's been called different things, but at the time in the 70s, 80s, Crossroads Church out of Florida, Pope Christ associated with another broader spectrum across, organized churches.
But also under this like non denominational, like trying to… It was under the framework of trying to out of some traditional views of Christianity and bring it to the modern world. And so they met that way, fell in love, had their own love story, and faith became integral. They started a leadership group within our church. They met in Arizona, moved to Albuquerque to start a church. So they were missionaries in that way, and sent to “plant a church”, they called it. And, they did that and it was out of our house, at the beginning. Conference rooms and different places to hold church. And after four years, they moved us to Las Cruces to do the same thing and started another coaching business. We moved out of our house… did our own outreach..
Yeah, that was, it was center point to our upbringing. It was central to how my parents raised us. As far as values and things like that. How our relationships were grown. There were times, we would have stuff at our house with our family. There were times that my dad actually washed their feet. And did a whole, we had…
Alesia: Ceremonies?
Nax: Yeah it there was a bit of defying tradition in a certain way. They played in a band. They played music. There were also some other problematic kind of things.
Alesia: What was your relationship your earliest memories of how you felt about that?
Nax: I loved going to church as a kid. Because of how involved our family was.. I liked being in on it, and had friends through it. I mean it was a really positive experience. It felt really natural and normal growing up in it. It was a positive thing in my life at the time. Inside I can see how it held me back in certain ways. I think it gave me a sense of grounding and connection and community. Which I did feel empowered by it
Alesia: I would agree. I think, largely, it is overwhelmingly a positive experience and part of my life. I felt, even in childhood, that I could feel the core principles I really cared about taking root through this. I was, seeing and paying attention and without any pressure either. I do feel like my parents allowed us to… We went to church every Sunday and Wednesday too and they really wanted us to come to the decision, whatever it might be, on our own. Growing up, and it would be baptism within specifically Church of Christ, which is non denominational… for African American families, largely, black population in these churches we grew up in, were going to…a lot of family, friends, a lot of connection. And so there was this overwhelming, sense of love. I was seeing actual humanity practiced well. That meant a lot to me. And I think I decided really early that mattered to me. So I was taking everything that I could, that I felt like helped fuel that- fueled the kind of person I wanted to be in the world- from it, from the Bible, from Christianity, from people in the church.
Nax: What were some of those principles?
Alesia: I was always trying to decipher what it really means to be compassionate or to like, love someone well or in your time with them and without judgment, right?
I think compassion is… I felt at the time compassion was the antithesis of judgement. But being human, judgment, right? It's around us. We do see it. Sometimes we see like our parents do it or we might see other people do it to our parents or you know you're watching the world as a child so much and if you see an example of something that you like, oh, that doesn't make me feel too good, right? children are so perceptive. It's okay, That's not part of what I want to take with me.
Nax: There's a judgment not rooted in truth. There’s a certain intuition with judgement that’s important
Alesia: Exactly.
Alesia: But to impose, conviction or belief on someone. That was what was scary. I think evangelizing mattered, and that was the word I heard growing up. We have the responsibility to teach others and to maybe help others or guide others by sharing scripture or whatever it might be. With the goal of -I'm hoping to bring this person closer to Christ, right? Or, some people, it's very drastic. It's “I am going to save their soul”, there's a lot of ego in that. And that also felt like the antithesis to me. I'm like, I can't, it can't be about you and not about you, right? Which is true kind of thing. And how does that affect your actions…But I felt like that mattered to me- trying to really feel define what that looks like to be compassionate and to love. I heard a lot about, I heard the scripture, “bad company corrupts good morals”. And I felt like that stuck. I always felt bad as a adolescent or preteen not, like having scriptures in my brain. You know what I mean? So many people have things memorized and I'm like, it's not that I didn't read the Bible. I just am not doing that. But the ones I would recall, I felt would be the same few that upon hearing them, like from my mother I could feel that I cared about it, that it mattered to me, and it was a principle I wanted to keep. That's, how I moved through Christianity.
Nax: Do feel like you were obviously taught scripture by your parents, but do you feel like they had more of a hand in telling you those scriptures, or did you take it upon yourself to read them?
Alesia: It was a combination. I think my parents were good teachers. But there were also other safe adults that were good teachers, right? And so there was a lot of community, which was another reason it was positive. the church me that me and my older brothers grew up in. Everyone there was like family. It just was so natural to learn from anyone you felt cared about. You felt like genuinely people just-
Nax: -had your back…
Alesia: Yeah, it was so supportive and so beautiful, and such a fond memory of a place that we went. It was such a good church, we moved hours away and would drive on Sundays just to keep going instead of finding a new place. Totally, it was a combination of both.
And when you're young it's about people. Like I'm not, I wasn't a child who was listening intently to sermons, right? I was, asking for more communion crackers and snacks. Mom, do you have another peppermint? Man. See, yeah, but yeah, and same with music and everything, but I do feel like there's a combination.
I learned from people and then things that I wanted to know more about I went, I did take it upon myself, but it came later. I would say that came when I did decide I wanted to be baptized and accept Christ. And I think I was 13 when I did and then came some self motivation and initiative to learn on my own.
But yeah, it was yeah, largely positive and beautiful and so it is a huge framework. But again, when you think about just getting older and aging and right and your environment changing. And how to reconcile these parts of yourself with things that are, like, directly confronting you. This is who I want to be this way, or this way, or and… it's interesting.
I think about high school and what principles I had, right? I wasn't interested in sex, I was satisfied with my life I loved everything I was involved in. I loved my friends. And it wasn't even, it wasn't a challenge. It was just like, there's always so much going on. I didn't even think twice about it.
It didn't mean, doesn't mean I wasn't interested in boys. I was having crushes and, doing my little silly stuff all over the place. But I felt in retrospect, I do feel I was more formidable about those things, because I was so content. It was very easy for me to be like, oh no, I just don’t.
Nax: Where did that contentment come from? Where you like the self confidence or like the?-
Alesia: I think it was how satisfied I was with my life. There was no reason to question, I was happy, so why would I, it's okay.
Nax: Like you didn't need to add more.
Alesia: I don't need it. It doesn't have to happen. It will it? Sure. Maybe, but I don't feel compelled to do that. And I will say, yes. Part of that, like I wasn't- I wouldn't say I was interacting with like boys in the same way that I saw girls my age doing. I had just moved schools at that age too and so I was felt like I was looking at a huge culture shock in just how children were acting.I was a child at 13. I was a kid and when I was in school, I felt like I was watching 11, 12, and 13 year olds do adult behavior and I didn't know what to make of that. I was like, but wait, yeah, like “I'm a kid and technically so are you.
Nax: How are you doing that?”
Alesia: I moved and I saw like a teen, a classmate who was pregnant. That was a first. I grew up in a very small town in East Texas, rural, where (to my knowledge) that was just like, not happening.
Nax: I grew up in Las Cruces, New Mexico, where every high school had a daycare.
Alesia: That is wild to me. I remember when our high school eventually got somewhere for young mothers to be able to have some assistance or to get help with school because they, had missed so much or whatever it might be. Like that was very new to me. But still not an influence, I was just like- I don't really know what this world is.
Nax: Did you feel like protected in that shelter ? Did you feel like it was? Did it like stunt you or do you feel like it protected your innocence?
Alesia: I think it protected my innocence. I don't know that anything-especially like I said with how satisfied and content I was and like I was still interacting with boys I had crushes.
I had people that I was asking that I was like dad can you know, so and so can you just meet him?- I didn't feel abnormal that comes with adulthood. exiting your home, exiting a comfort to a degree, and being completely surrounded by people who have lived- who are living different lives than you, right?
And that is where the challenging of those ideals starts, and I think there's value in that. Even looking back through college I was still not sexually active, but I was challenging other aspects of my faith and I knew that one would come, right? I wasn't, there were no prospects at my college.
Nax: Everyone was lining up to date me.
Alesia: Yeah. And I was like, it was not, I was not at that school. I was not at some big state school. I had a total of two crushes in four years at that university, and not actionable ones. It was, yeah to try and, yeah, just try and figure out how to be like, what kind of adult I'm supposed to be, I think is how I thought of it at the time
Nax: At 13 or more like college?
Alesia: Like 18 yeah, going off and being like, what? I don't know how to reconcile these things. And maybe I'm supposed to be doing this, right? Maybe this is a part of adulthood that I need to engage in. So nothing's happening, right? I'm not like actively seeking that, but at a time I think it, it confronts you in a way where you will have to grapple with it.
It's within my choices I think holding on to core principles from faith used a s fuel to the person I want to be in the world helps try to grapple with things. And trying to have confidence behind your decisions, regardless of where you land, it doesn't agree with those ideals, because when a choice is a choice, and I think. Yeah I wanted to explore what I felt like my peers were doing. And also, while still exploring my relationship with God, because I also, I went to some small private school, liberal arts college,
Nax: you did go to a liberal arts college?
Alesia: Yeah, it was a Christian college. Yeah, liberal arts private Christian. University.
Nax: So they prioritized a relationship with God, like a Christian framework?
Alesia: Yeah, Christian framework in like certain classes, some professors, may pray before a class. There's an open dialogue, but you're not in biology, learning about Christ.
Nax: It was appropriate. Yeah, people like, because I was thinking maybe like everyone's doing it as as far as sex goes, whatever. Maybe in this environment, you're talking about maybe keeping up with your peers, but what was the concept of premarital sex at that point?
Alesia: I think it's still college in a big city. I was in Houston, Texas. So people are coming all over the place. And the thing about that school is it had a lot of good programs. It was very diverse makeup of people, religions,
Nax: were okay to be having sex, you talked about, or was it more secretive?
Alesia: On the campus? Yeah. Your private life's your private life, unless you're talking about it, no one's talking about it in your class, right? So I think it's just what you know about your friends and what's happening, whatever. But that kind of stuff still happens. No. Yeah. We had frats, we had sororities, we had, it was a college experience. Just wasn't a big state school. So yeah, those kids were doing whatever they wanted to do. I think I had like minded friends, but as I had friends, I never did any other stuff. The same way you do in high school. I think it, I think that the difference was like, Oh, because I'm 20 something, it feels like I'm supposed to be Learning some aspect of this learning more about this aspect of life. Some sort of social expectation to be sexual, to engage in sex and to define it.
Nax: Growing up for me, it was like, it was one of those things where it's definitely raised in the cis hetero patriarchy within the Christian framework of the father's head of the household. It was like a male dominance in that way. There was definitely an element of misogyny that we had to put up with. As a kid, I don't know if this happened to you or if people would be like, Oh, do you have a boyfriend? -to a five year old.
Alesia: Oh my gosh, I grew up in one of those small rural towns in East Texas where people were literally betrothing their children. It was crazy.
Nax: when it's a hetero thing, then it's like fun and cute and fine and normal, but it's you're not doing that with my best friend who's I am a girl and who I actually do have a crush on. But you're not asking that question to us. And so I think I knew I was a queer from an early age, but I didn't have any of the language to understand that. I think I just knew it in myself that I was a little more, I didn't even, tomboy wasn't even a thing. I still felt girly in ways, but also neutral in a lot of ways. I just didn't, I wasn't, I played basketball, but I also liked to dance. It was a combination of, things that I like to do, but as far as like romantic, I was a helpless romantic early and always had a crush on somebody. I did learn after some point, I think, that I needed to have crushes on boys and not girls. I do remember making out with my five year old best friend. Getting caught for that and after that not, I never kissed a girl after that, like for many years.
So it's I knew to have crushes boys, but when I look back on it, they were all very like effeminate boys. Like one crush in second grade was literally, he would wear a suit to class every day and had this like wavy brushback hair and I was like you! I always liked people that didn't like me back, though.
And, that was always a thing. But I always had crushes. I loved having trouble. But my thing was that, again, it just was so rarely reciprocated. I went into middle school, high school, just like the best way to treat guys, a thing, and it's been, because all my friends around me, it's yeah, I understand the keeping up with the social expectations. Even as early as middle school. But then also having that, having a healthy family system, I had those conversations and they didn't shy away from having sex talks as early as 9, my mom. I hated those conversations. I felt very shy.
Very hated those conversations. But they were, she had such a confidence talking about sex and, bodies what's going to happen and all this stuff, and then a year later started my period really early. I was growing at really weird rates as a kid…Yeah middle school, high school, by the time I did actually get into a relationship .Yeah, it's like I was informed about sex, I knew about it, my mom, again, was very confident in having those conversations with us. It was more if you’re gonan do it do I tin the house sort of thing-
Alesia: so culturally different, yeah, that would never happen-
Nax: But like they wanted to be in on the conversation, they wanted to make sure that we knew that we had support instead of relying on other external factors to, give me that education, yeah, definitely that, like longing for that.
I did feel some social pressure. But it mostly was, like, my own- I wanted it, it wasn't so much that my friends were doing it so I wanted to do it too. But then it's maybe looking back did I needed that or something, or was it, or it's wrapped up in that somehow. Yeah. I was taught to be a confident person in my skills and my interests…
Alesia: yeah, I think it's interesting because I feel like our culture, our micro culture in my family and maybe across families to some degree black families with, religion and being raised that way I think there's this idea of giving you like the instruction and the wisdom and the scripture, you accept the wisdom of knowing- Like Wisdom says I can absorb this lesson without having to like make a poor choice and then learn from the poor choice kind of thing.
And count, and I think to count on that sometimes instead of open dialogue. And sometimes that's fine, right? I felt super, like I said, super satisfied, super convicted. It was not, I didn't need a conversation about it because I wasn't. I wasn’t really consider having any sex or anything like that.
Crush all the time but not quick to date. Yeah, but I wasn't quick to date. I think I always had in my mind, fueled by Christianity, an image of who I was supposed to date. Quality of person. And that's not a bad thing, right? I think it's okay to have this idea of a quality of person- but then moving into the world and all of a sudden you're like, having a crush on who isn’t a quality person. As one does sometimes..
Nax: Are you talking about fuck boys?
Alesia: Oh my gosh No!.. drummers… bassists
It is different how they choose to address that thing. And I think my parents really encouraged intimate relationships. I did feel safe talking to my mom about a lot of things…I think I was scared to talk about things for knowledge, out of fear they might misconstrue it as “this is happening” -Instead of it's not just curiosity or beginning and then I'm like, I just don't want the misunderstanding. And I think I've been like that a long time, how the person on the other side might receive it and what their response if there's a likelihood of a poor one, I'm just like, I just don't need the, I don't know that I need the hassle as a kid, and I was that way until my late twenties. It took forever to just respond for myself without one like worrying about that- to get my truth out just for the sake of getting it out. I did not know how to do that. Then there were certain things about our dynamic that I think I built up in my head like this idea of. you're pushed to talk to your mom cause you're the only girl and I got three brothers and like, why would I go to my dad?
And so me and my dad, we did not practice talking about a lot of things. We were close. I love him. He's the best dad. But it just didn't happen. And if without practice, it is uncomfortable. Now in adulthood, like having intimate discussions and just trying to keep them included in my life and like getting over this fear that I let get too large of disappointment or again, not honoring my parents somehow because I've made a choice that I inherently know doesn't align with theirs, even if it does make me happy.
And that's a hard thing, I think, to explain to people who like, do not have the hangup of having that value instilled through Christianity. You can grow up in a secular family and be taught to honor your parents but it doesn't feel contractual, almost, the way it does when it comes through Christianity.
It's no, this is what you do. This is a practice, right? I'm not just, I don't just care about my parents and wouldn't let, them grow old in some busted place- there is a rooted responsibility and role when framed through Christianity.
And so sometimes when talking to people or dating people who don't have that background I know how silly we can seem sometimes
Nax: It wasn't like encouraged or practiced to have agency and autonomy are not root, roots of Christianity. It's God number one, your spouse number two, your children number three, four, five, whatever, and then you last. You're, it's to take care of yourself and to have your own identity and to have your own agency in your thoughts, even if that differs from what you're putting on, that was not encouraged. That's not encouraged…Because it is this, they've done everything, it's a guilt for sure, there's a guilt attached to it. And if you disappoint them and all of that, but then it's -
Alesia: also, again, like It kept me from thinking I could talk about things again for information or knowledge. And I think that's really where the danger is, right? And I came up with that perception. I was like, oh, it just doesn't seem like that's probably okay or whatever. And I was, a worried child about, being on the right side…I was the only girl. And it's, it just was different.
Nax: Did you feel pressured to be, like, pleasant, though?
Alesia: I didn't feel pressured to be pleasant. I enjoyed being pleasant. I just was [pleasant]to a fault. I didn't know how to be angry, justifiably. I didn't I really have a lot of experience with conflict resolution, so there was a lot of delay in my learning how to process negative emotions and how to express them and how to (if they're actionable) act justifiably and advocate for myself that… yeah, I did not learn that.
Yeah, it's, yeah, but I think it's the lack of the fear of, yeah, them thinking wanting to talk about something might just mean that it's happening, and I'm like, I think I just worried about potential conflict. And in a way, there's accountability on my end for not taking the time to ask the questions that I had, or just going to my parents with things that I, that were on my heart. I stopped paying myself a lot of attention. It is what it is. I was a kid. that changed in time.
Nax: is that an example of what that is?
Alesia: No! Not in any other way than you know what your parents look like when they're angry As a kid, you will do something at some point. You'll fuck up I don't know a child that hasn't seen that. Yeah, right? I was like, you know what your parents are like. you know how comfortable you are or if you want to deal with it. Exactly. I was always minimizing. Always trying to keep peace. Always just trying to like, and, to my own,
Nax: I can feel that too. I definitely relate to that. I don't know if it was the youngest girl, all that stuff. I don't know that. There was the undertone within the church. But I think that as a family, they actually wanted us to be ourselves. And to explore independence. They defied a lot of the tradition of their own experiences. I respect that a lot as well. But, I think there was, I hated conflict. I hated having any, being in trouble of course. I was the kind of person that would see somebody get in trouble for something on the street. I didn't need that experience myself in order for me to learn. I didn't see the wisdom and the logic in that. I didn't take risks in a lot of ways for that. I did minimize myself in a lot of ways. There were some moments of silencing from other people that they diminished what I was saying in a way that I learned to be quiet about that. I do think whether from external or, which then, maybe it was external and then that just internally, I snowballed it for the most part, but it definitely was, I had it, I had internalized that being small and being, like, not ruffling feathers and, being polite .Had to be pleasant to smile, to- I wasn't allowed to experience anger in the way that, say, my brother did.
It did constrict me in a path that was unbearable and I'm naturally highly sensitive to anger. I've taken advantage of in some capacity, whether intentionally or not that it did withheld me. It protected me at certain points.
It was important. Which is similar to us bringing up a child in general, right? I, I was asking about it. It's altered in a way that, you know. Because it's as a kid, yeah. You can't come back from, once you learn something, you can't come back from that, there is a moment of preservation. Or whatever, it is a corrupt and disgusting world. and I respect that they did want to protect me from that. For as long as possible. At least, yeah, prepare me. But I think f I ha been allowed to express more anger…. because I got called too sensitive.
I was told to just, get in there, put up with it, kind of stuff. There wasn't as much space for me to process those feelings in a way that would then prepare me to feel empowered and able to feel those in the future and handle it in a healthy way. I was really afraid of anger. It resulted in me catering to other people's anger specifally men. And that became a dynamic of my anger not being validated
Alesia: I don't think I don't think I ever I don't think I was without examples of Justified or safe anger. Again, as a kid, you will see your parents angry. And that made sense to me. I thought of it in a kid to adult way, like this is, you get to do this you are older so you know how to do this, right?
You get to be more angry or use swear words or express your anger as an adult because you have more control, right? It seems so, with the adults in my life. But I think I really was accustomed to being happy. I didn't have a lot of trouble. And so when I wasn't, it was so weird and so foreign.
I really didn't know what to do with it. And I almost never It felt better to be happy and be in a good mood. Exactly. And so I just, I practiced almost immediately from the beginning of having a negative emotion to never say anything. And to just swallow, let pass if it does, which as a kid, most of it's quick anyway, right?
There's not a super heavy things I'm, I could find anger about anyway. And I thought that was okay, right? And then, you get to college and stress and anxiety and whatever, and you're worried about so many things cause you're trying to head somewhere, it's up to you to get you there
so you do worry and you hold onto things and I then developed the graduated version of that response, right? Which is to then recluse from people that you've made connections with while you're down and out till you're better. So when you get around them, you can be the best part, the best you.
And I started to think that's what people needed from me. I was like, Oh, this is a responsibility I have. This is actually, I didn't see it as a deficiency. I was like, I am protecting these people, I'm protecting my relationships, my family, my friends, all the people you should lean on, and who should know maybe what’s going on.
Nax: You were protecting them from-
Alesia: From this perception of -and thinking that mattered to them, right? I convinced myself that mattered to them, it was this false narrative I perpetuated tough lesson, some of that, is the lack of experience of conflict. Some of it is being raised to be palatable I don't think that was a hardcore principle in my upbringing. I think it is the inherent principle in societal teaching, right? Like society seeps into your home, tv, movies, whatever. And so that subliminal teaching of how women need to present themselves this way.
Women in society are to act this way some times to navigate and move things right? Sometimes it's working for you. Sometimes it's self-preservation. A lot of times it's self-preservation, . But it's there's a purpose, right? And again, pros and cons. I think having that and I think knowing how to do that or be that did help me navigate spaces and rooms and move through things with some confidence because again, also being a black woman there's always going to be some ridiculous person trying to qualify why you're here, or why do you deserve to be here, x, y, z, or you're pretty for a-, you're smart for a, you're, follow you, what is it, not outspoken, articulate for a-, oh my, insert a thing.And so mitigating that by presenting a certain way, right? That's so awful.
Nax: That's so much extra work.
Alesia: It is. It is. It's a full time job. Yeah. And you crash from it.
Nax: And it's really like on normal validation of other people's role in a way that
Alesia: You can't even guarantee.
Nax: It's not a gauge that you pull over, really.
You do to a certain extent because you inform how others treat you. But it's also, it's up to them to be watching what I'm doing. Very true.
Alesia: And people will still say sideways shit to you.
Nax: Even if you did everything perfect.
Alesia: Even if you did it all the right thing.
Which then makes me. I, and it's not about, and I think sometimes the principle of when people have either had negative experiences with organized religion, which are so valid, because we're still humans, it's still made up of mankind, right? And evil prevails.
It's a corrupt system. Of course, it's as long as dirty people got their hands in it, right? But I think, not getting locked up in the details of the Bible, but thinking just how we said, you can do everything, perfectly, and someone can still call you the N word, to your face, at your job.
Yeah. Real or not, the idea is that Jesus was a person who still got fucked over that is our world. And that's what, that's the truth of it, right? That's what we're gleaning. It's okay, even if it says, how do I navigate this? How do I want to be in this world where this is going to be true?
That's the guarantee. It's not about the, yeah, it's not about the details. And I think that's interesting that people get locked up in that. I'm like, this is a faith based thing. This is something you're believing and you can't prove. It's trying to help you navigate your world-
Nax: much less about organized religion.
Alesia: Exactly.
And I don't trust a certain Christian. Certainty don't go with Christianity. That don't make sense to me. You don't get to come and speak in. And exactly. I'm like no, you don't get that. That whole point is that we don't get to be sure. We don't get to be sure. No one does. We get to be sure about a few things, and we all know those, what those are, and one of the big ones is mortality, right?
That's our world. That's our life. (not me quoting a Bug’s life)
Nax: When I think about Evangelical Christianity is so different from what Jesus taught, where I'm like, and as an adult, I've returned, because I stopped, I, I had a falling out or whatever. I fell away from the church, they call it. I fell away. Anyway, but just revisiting what the practices of Jesus and like hanging out with unsheltered people and sex workers and being anti-capitalist against controlling government these things I super relate to now as a person and the irony of evangelical Christians or people in Christianity, whatever, whites, that, people feel entitled to. But then is so far away from what actually the teachings are. So just, it's, that's the irony that I'm like, I don't need to be, I don't need to label myself as a Christian to understand the practices of Jesus and understand why that's valuable to follow and, the idea of abundance, turning a little bit into a lot of, like gratitude and all, love for your neighbor and That, and how people just miss the boat on that, where they don't even understand that.
Alesia: You can grow up in a secular family, let's say, and be instilled with all of these qualities. I think my issue has always been why, like trying to show or prove that by maintaining that relationship, like this is how I get those, right? This is how I got those. I don't know that I would be as good a person, right? This is how those principles sunk in for me. And so I do maintain that relationship with my faith. I do feel like I always joke, I'm like, I gotta, me and God got a line. I'm tethered, you feel me? I'm always connected.
Sometimes the rope is long, you feel me? And I'm a little bit over there. And sometimes we're real close, I want to be right next to you. Or sometimes you end up far. It's just, but it is just I think. I think I'm always worried about the context because the Christians who do have notoriety and attention are farthest from the values, right? Farthest from the force, right? Evil gets attention. headlines, news. this sort of overarching egotistical version of it.
And I'm just do you guys not hear the difference? Hear the like you said, the irony. It's what? You can't even talk like that if you really understand what this is just trying to say. It's just that's it. And miss me with that. I don't care what he looks like How does that matter? he doesn't look white And who cares? I don't need him to have a face. You know what I'm saying? We don't know. It's not here to be concrete. It's literally here to be the opposite, because ther eis no concrete, there is no certainty here. Just getting wrapped up in imagery, for what? That doesn't even make sense.
Nax: And even the ritual of doing Christian activities in a way of going to church and paying your tithe and, you have your maybe house set up or something or whatever where it like, you're technically, what's your actual faith, what's your actual relationships there and her dad in that, again, it's like this, like external okay, I'm doing everything right, so society's gonna like me and God's gonna like me, and so then I'll die and go to heaven.
Alesia: And I think it, you know what I'm saying? Like again, it is a mindset thing, right? Because I also think there is also like some semblance of the Bible talking about, just trying to meet the ends, right? Like the mindset of I'm just, I got to do all these things and I get this, right? And it's that's not even a way it's encouraging you to live. You're not checking off some list.
Where’s your heart? Where's your freaking heart? Make a choice. Stand by your choice and your choices are just choices, You have to accept. Positive and negative consequences. Accountability is liberating this one's not, exactly aligned with things I say I care about, but it is what I wanted to do in this moment, and I did do it.
I have to accept whatever this feels like. You do. You have to. And before you make it, you have to be okay with that. The more okay you are, like, you don't, you have less crises about what that means. It's not a stamp on you, right? The one choice isn't a stamp. And actually accountability shows us taking ownership of our choices and their consequences. For me, I'm like, oh yeah, I'm like, this is, we practice this enough, and you're like, oh actually this helps fuel the rest of the mental dissonance that people have with what happens after a choice they've made.
Nax: When you're talking about a relationship with God, too, that's the whole thing is that it's you and this idea of God. What you're envisioning for your own faith and your own universal,
Nax: Feel connected to, that's a you thing. not about society or however other you like we were saying, Jesus was persecuted like the society. So who did not support him. Society was not like, not behind at all. No. They literally murdered him, like that is a you thing and in that too, that relationship takes work, it's flexible, adaptable, and that it's like- like forgiving in that way too, not to just do bad things because God's going to forgive you, but just if it is this thing where it's I have this faith and I also want to do this other thing that doesn't necessarily align with the religion. It doesn't have anything to do with the faith really.
You still have your faith, but want to do something like drink or dance or whatever it is that's supposed to be you're not allowed to do, which most of us are not, people are just the restriction of things and having to be this like pure, perfect person. And that's impossible. That is not. Yeah. That is not. And that's not the thing to strive for. And that you're inevitably going to feel guilty and going to do bad things and going to whatever, because that's an impossible standard.
Alesia: And you see that. You see christian children crash with that, with being confronted with that. Once they get out into the world oh shoot, losing their virginity. Full mental crisis. I've given it away, or I've lost it, or I've soiled, I've, name it… It's okay to care for it. I think it is nice. It’s intended to protect
It is intended to. give you some empowerment, I think, in your body so that you can make choices and engage in things when you're ready to, right? It is supposed to be your choice. It is supposed to be your virginity, right? You do with yourself, your temple, as you feel safe doing. And again, if it is rooted in principle and wanted to do a certain thing That that, yeah, that perceived failure really rips people up.
Nax: And it takes away from such a special thing, I think about the concept of virginity- sex is so much just a part of life if it is something that's drawn to or that you want to experience. This kind of this other person took my virginity or something as though it's, and that they have some ownership of it now or there's, I got something that was removed from me somehow or now I'm, this other tainted.. It's this other, yeah, these like weird amorphous kind of things that like aren't- It's like a more ceremony I guess than, it's I think even the concept of virginity is something that doesn't acknowledge the difference between child and adult. Some people never have sex. And they're still an adult. They're still a whatever. They're still.
Alesia: Yeah. So to qualify it It's something that will eventually be taken, And, again, it's not. It's just in and of itself. Yeah outside of practice dictated by mankind, right? Same world we're living in. Same hands. Just, this is, it is yours. It is a part of you. I do think it is sacred if you want it to be sacred. If it is sacred to you and to and to the polarism of our country, to empower people to make their choice, right?
If you're pretending it's sacred, fucking save it, right? Don't fuck a bunch of bums. That's great. I would love I think we, again, normalize having poor experiences. We normalize like having to go through the trudge to get the pearl of wisdom and you don't -that is what wisdom is… acknowledging I don't need to do that to understand it's a really beautiful thing to have But yeah, I'm like that is It is yours but it the decision yeah the framework of Yeah, taking and giving.
Nax: intercourse sex can happen in so many other ways. Where it's this kind of, and you see this within very strict people who are like, they'll do everything but have penetrative sex like trying to get around it somehow?-
Alesia: I never in my, and again this could be cultural and like again that lack of dialogue, but I just don't feel like when sex was present as a concept or whatever, even if it was like because of a movie or, if it was because of something at church or that particular sermon.
I felt like the details of what you do is, has never been a part of teaching. You know what I'm saying? And the first time I heard someone say something like that, like a restrictive type of intercourse was in college and like a women's group, a women's Bible group. And it was just the first I'd heard of that, and again, no judgment, I was just like, oh, I've never, as someone who hadn't had sex yet, I was like, oh, is that something I should have been considering?
Is that something people say? There was a young woman. older than me at school she said the mouth is for the mouth, and like the private is for the private, I heard some other things. I've never heard the details discussed through teaching.
I was like, that feels, it like it's trying to mandate something and I'm like, that's not, that's no, again… I'm a like separation of church and state person in so many ways, like finding a way to, to make that to show where that rule exists in any aspect of life.
there is something to be said about personal, decisions, and things that have actually public consequences. It is an interesting concept. yeah, the agency of here's your body, here's where your power lies, here's where your control lies, right?
Our autonomy is our power. Our self advocacy is our power. Our ability to take the best possible care of ourselves is where your power and control lie. And in that is accountability, right? To acknowledge that external things and to acknowledge what isn't in your control. And to acknowledge your role in, in what is happening around you. It’s not just these things happening at you, around you, or to you. You are a part of this equation.
Nax: that's what we're talking about with love and compassion, how you live your life. make those choices and how you navigate the world will impact what kind of experiences you have. And the mindset has so much to do with it, though, too, of being open to love compassion, goodness and navigating the world that way. You'll start to see that more good things are happening, versus if you're judging and criticizing and taking things too hard and always seeing ways to move forward. Oh, that would navigate here.
Alesia: Yeah, and something about… I think there's some I think sometimes it can be rooted in like a poor response to what we do know…those truths that we do get to have and that are undisputable.
Navigating the world with accountability and I think if you're trying to ignore that evil exists, that is our earthly experience, that our lives are finite, and - I'm not saying those aren't hard psychological choose, right? There are inherent core- a spectrum of responses in your core, I feel like, to those things that then influence how you move. the response for me is faith. I chose faith as my way to know, to, to deal with those truths. And to help influence me to be someone who is good in my finite time. If I got finite time, I want to make it good. That's my response.
And I do understand the flip side of if it's finite, why does it matter? I get nihilism. I do. But I don't want to choose it. But yeah, I think sometimes I like diving into it. One, because as someone who had that upbringing and it still feels like, I'm connected and plugged in this way.
And this does still fuel my life and how I move through things very much to do this day. And I think I'm a, I think I'm a good likable person. I think, I think I've formed, honestly, some incredible relationships and I do give credit to faith for don't know, being the building blocks to like who Alesia was going to be. I couldn't have formed them if I wasn't who I am. And to me, who I am was built on this bad Christians having notoriety or whatever. And I do feel really like I've, I feel like I collect people who have poor organized faith relationships and exited faith entirely, name a denomination, right? And justifiably why they exited traumatic experiences for some, just unpleasant for others, it's so understandable because of the human nature and aspect of it.
But to then not demonize or misconstrue someone who says they still have or are connected to it or have faith or let the word Christian slip without scaring someone I'm like, I need both to be okay. If I can show you love and compassion, I've never, put any of that or any sort of religious anything down anyone’s throat. I'm trying to purport love, I'm trying to purport compassion, I'm trying to encourage forgiveness because it's also so powerful and it has also helped me And it helps build accountability too because you would want it, right? Like it's just. To me, it does, it is all connected.
It is the thread for my particular tapestry of being the kind of person I want to be. But yeah, I think I just want, I want to talk more about the framework because it feels good to, you don't get to so much if you have a smaller portion of people who understand the context, right? You need a safe space. It feels like I need a safe space to talk about it. And, yeah, I think that -
Nax: but, yeah, I think defining the terms is really important in these conversations. Very true. It's Christian means something to different people, and it is triggering in different ways because of those experiencesand the religious trauma attached to any of those experiences.
Whereas, but specifically Christianity, because that can also go into other conversations around just, colonization and justified, genocide and all these other things in the name of Christianity. And that has happened, obviously, in other but just the way Christianity has taken the world by storm in a more negative way, with a sense of evangelicalizing the world in a self righteous kind of way -from power and control and things like that, and I think
Alesia: that's what makes it hard. There's the title Christian that has the history of the world behind it, the unfortunate aspects of human nature, the human aspect of it. The human aspect of it. And there's also I didn't know that's how people perceive Christians, as a kid, I was like, oh, that's crazy. Surely people know that person's ridiculous. Surely people don't believe them when they call themselves Christian. if people attach to that definition, and I grew up, and my definition, I feel like, It's closer to the truth. I got to find a different word to use, or oh shoot, I got to find a different way to let people know that this thing about me, without triggering all the awful things attached to it, and show them why that's different.
I think I lead with showing them. think you lead with love. I'm sorry you don't get to impose things on people and consideration goes really far, like listening to people and compassion.
Nax: Like the love and compassion you're talking about is not because of Christianity necessarily and that other people have that human kindness and empathy, regardless of religion.
Alesia: Exactly. people are capable of this without it. Yeah.
Nax: And that religion can be a helpful, space to share similar thoughts and things like that. There is a place for it if it meets the need and is serving. It can also be a placeholder for somebody that doesn't have the love and compassion and is not acting in a way deemed Christian-But then they still go to church and everything so we can claim that. And again, the character would define the-defining the terms are important and I think your character defines your human nature.
Alesia: Yeah, exactly. if that title's important to you, then again, it's showing people what it means to you.
Nax: And the, it's regardless of what people think about you, the other underlying current in when we're having this conversation is the entity that we're talking about, God knows anyways, like Santa. Then no matter how you're like being perceived There is this concept of someone else understanding your nature. I don't know, that's what the accountability aspect is. You are accountable to yourself.
Alesia: I think so in the way that, if it's truly What you want to do, and how you want to be, and that grounding force helps you do that, right? That's the deal. It's not about existence and non existence, it's, to me, and it's, not even about an obligation. I actually I do feel like this is a relationship that mirrors how I need to tend to my earthly relationships, right? My human relationships. It's very different. There is, there's some, discourse that makes me feel good to do, right? There's and how I connect, like talking out loud and, and I do think prayer is a comfort and I do think it feels powerful to me to say things and speak that way.
Nax: Because that's your relationship with that.
Alesia: Exactly. That's my, yeah. That's, yeah And for me, I feel that grounding force just helps fuel my accountability, right? I don't feel bad because I've necessarily let him down because I actually believe he knows my heart and nature and I believe those are good…When I do, make a choice. I can accept I'm just like I know it's never a bad place and it might not be aligned with what you said, but I can accept where I, what I chose to do, right? While still having this relationship and without feeling like, oh, I've somehow Yeah, I'm letting something down.
Nax: It’s the guilt and the reprimand.
Alesia: It's for me to do better. It's for me to hold myself accountable. It's a tool.
Nax: It's a tool. And that it's not this fearful. Almighty God is going to strike down wrath on you for, doing this thing.. That's not a loving God, it's like that's not acting in a loving way.
Alesia: that's not what we're taught he is, we're all like alone. Like that lesson, the fire and brimstone lesson is the- the spectrum of human emotion, right?
Powerful, obviously omniscient, but yeah, a jealous god, an actionable one, right? And yes, there's points of mercy, and but there's also reprimand and it's, that is again, extracting the truth of that, is that is what exists in our world, that is what exists in our life. Sometimes everyone responds to..
I'm thinking of it in the way of like conditioning or positive reinforcement versus negative reinforcement, punishment so of course that would be a natural principle given to what, we're calling a sort of governing being and the truth is we govern ourselves.
So do you need punishment to then learn to then make the better choices to them? Right? If that's effective. That's always been part of the duality of it. It's Oh, okay. Yes. Love. compassion All of the best things. We want to embody them to the best of our ability. But acknowledging the natural dichotomy of our own nature, right? We are angry, we do get jealous, we do make poor decisions, we do sometimes experience punishment, and it is effective, right? We do sometimes experience positive reinforcement, and it's effective, and sometimes, either of those is not, right?
Some people still do, sometimes. No matter what the punishment, no matter what the negative, positive yeah. It's, again, nature. It's just trying to tell you nature and the world as a tool.
Nax: They are tools. That’s really what it’s meant to be-
Alesia: That’s really what it’s meant to be.
Nax: -a guide and framework to navigate your life and, still be able to do it no matter what time. We're in the 2000s. It's a totally different time than you're taking this historical text and trying to, applying it to this modern world,
Alesia: Again getting caught up in the little semantics and the details.
Nax: Yeah. Because it's, read what you want out of it, too, if if you want to so then if you can get the lesson if you see it, you don't have to be these people or be in the same circumstances, to understand the lesson of humanity, which is really what it's trying to teach us. About ourselves and how to operate with one another, with other people. capitalism and everything has been so over, has overtaken and overrun everything to such an extent. And evil, raised this way because
Alesia: And it's not the only evil.
Nax: Exactly. No, but it's a very, it is an active one. Yeah, it's effective. And often in the name of God, there's money in the picture. And, building, yeah, I don't know, control, or, other male entity that is gonna kind of determine things..
Alesia: But I think, yeah, I think what you were saying as far as like defining…One for yourself, I feel like that is just
Nax: let it be what it is for you, it doesn't have to be for other people. Your version of Christianity is going to look like your version.
Alesia: Yeah. It's interesting. I feel fortunate to have challenged things because when you're really wrapped up in it in this obligatory state of mind with it your mistakes are failures,
Nax: and therefore you are a failure.
Alesia: And like cosmically detrimental, right? Yes. Two I think, I just lost my brain. My brain is thinking about people who act that way how they process any information essentially is right? Out of obligation.
Nax: Maybe more out of survival than desire to do it, though. If you're doing it out of obligation or because Yeah, you're, it's more of maintaining safety and a survival.
Alesia: And there's like this, again, this lacking, this giving up of your autonomy. Lends itself to things not being your fault. It takes you away from accountability, dangerous.We have to have it.
Nax: There's humility there… Made a mistake, there's shame guilt in that but the humility to accept you are a human being, gonna make mistakes, hurt people, and hurt yourself, and that you're gonna
Alesia: I think humility is more related to having to having to acknowledge it with someone, But accountability is acknowledging it for yourself. Like I have to be okay that I made a mistake. And I'm defining the mistake, right? I said it's a mistake and I have to be okay with it, right?
Nax: And you have to choose to grow from that or not grow.
Alesia: It's always going to be on you, and people who keep distancing themselves from that principle, are…hard to grow with.
Again it's a perspective of acknowledging your role sounds crazy to say that you have to say it, but it is, you have to acknowledge your role in your circumstances. The person where everything is external, everything is happening to them, or at them, it is hard for me to- that is a way you make the world. And I'm not saying obviously people change and grow and I've been on the other side We are not consistent unless we work really hard to be, and even then, right? It's it's okay. But for me personally, that is important to have.
I don't think I have many people in my life that don't have that. And sometimes that can make things feel like a bubble and that's not a bad thing, then you step out into the world and again, love and compassion. You have to remember I've had the luxury of building the environment and my circumstances because of accountability because I recognize my role in things…
Who am I attracting? Who am I allowing around me? How does that agree with what I'm saying I want to do? And if I'm going to try and stay this this and keep these values is this helping? Is that helping me? Jesus. Looking at all of that.
Nax: Who am I inviting in? Who am I asking to stay?
Alesia: Yeah. Who am I not asking to leave? Yes, exactly.
Nax: Self respect. I respect myself to grow. The self awareness, again, the irony with like self righteousness people thinking they're bigger and better and doing it all right but lack self awareness to realize their place in their life and it’s not this gold star thing. Yeah. You get to make your choice. How you respond to things. The only thing you control is how you respond. And then having empathy for people, going back out in the world where people are less accountable or aware, having compassion for them understanding even if they're rude or something happened, but it's like they're, I don't know, just having, the compassion goes so much further. It obviously is good for other people because it's with you nicer. But it's so much better for your heart to act in compassion because it's acting in love. Yeah. And that feels good to exercise.
Alesia: And it is that. It is an exercise. You have to practice it. And it
Nax: Even if they don't reciprocate it, you get it by doing it.
Alesia: And it is this sort of – when engaging with others trying not to lead with your own ideals when it comes to their actions. Because their actions are their own. There are people in the world who are not like that. You may consider it poor behavior, but it is their behavior, exactly. You have defined poor behavior for yourself. They have had to define poor behavior for themselves, and they felt it was okay to act that way.
Yes, is it appropriate you then respond, maybe you have a degree or something that's, what, Again, you're defining this, so if it's not cool with you, you decide how you want to act. That's where you, that's what you get to do. That's what we as individuals get to do, but the love and compassion to when you know you are engaging with others, right?- having a basic acknowledgement that they could be different, it is likely they will be different. And then to say, okay, this is a poor response to me but I can still have time and space to seek understanding. Even though I've defined this as a poor situation, right? I can seek to understand real quick where this person's coming from so I can inform my response a bit better
It's for you too. it is an exercise. it does take time. it isn't easy. you might do it some days and other days you won't. But it's a beautiful thing to practice. To, better the parts that we, as individuals, decide we don't like. To change that. Practice. To get new ones. To get new things. Yeah. To get to invite new things to your nature to practice. The act of changing is one that is difficult…